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Post by redsycorax on Nov 1, 2023 23:14:42 GMT
Although Captain Nazi coldbloodedly murdered Freddy Freeman's grandfather. Such wanton and callous disregard for human life indicates someone who's fairly depraved and indicates a debased moral compass by any standard. And moreover, those 'ideals' themselves are demonic and evil. If he murdered at least one person for no reason other than the facile one that they 'obstructed' him, how others has he slaughtered over the years? In his first appearance against Bulletman, he's shown toppling a ferris wheel. If Bulletman didn't rescue those people in time, that makes him a mass murderer in his first appearance. I imagine he's probably a true believer in the bowdlerised Nietzschean myth of the ubermensch: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nazi
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Nov 2, 2023 18:45:21 GMT
I think a key element of Sivana's character is that he enjoys himself while doing criminal things while Lex never seems overly happy.
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Nov 2, 2023 18:46:36 GMT
Actually, King Kull is perhaps the most ruthless of all E-3 villains.
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Post by dans on Nov 2, 2023 19:40:00 GMT
I think a key element of Sivana's character is that he enjoys himself while doing criminal things while Lex never seems overly happy. Yeah that is what put me off when I realized it. I had problems reconciling that attitude with the general more humorous feel of the rest of the Marvel Family stories.
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Post by DocQuantum on Nov 2, 2023 21:46:30 GMT
Mister Mind is also very bloodthirsty, but you wouldn't think it because he's just a cute li'l green worm. He was actually sent to the electric chair for mass murder and was executed (though he got better).
According to Captain Marvel Adventures #46, Mister Mind is known to have murdered 186,744 people in cold blood, which probably puts him near the top of almost any super-villain list. He had ZERO respect for ANY human life, which makes him worse than Luthor, Sivana, and yes, even Captain Nazi. Mister Mind and King Kull share the same antipathy for humanity, but King Kull at least has a better reason for his hatred than Mister Mind ever did, given that Kull's people were completely wiped out. Mister Mind is just plain evil for evil's sake.
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Post by DocQuantum on Nov 2, 2023 21:47:27 GMT
I think a key element of Sivana's character is that he enjoys himself while doing criminal things while Lex never seems overly happy. Yeah that is what put me off when I realized it. I had problems reconciling that attitude with the general more humorous feel of the rest of the Marvel Family stories. I think it fits very well because it's so over-the-top, just like Mister Mind's bodycount.
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 3, 2023 2:17:02 GMT
Putting in a bad word for Captain Nazi... has anyone tallied the death tolls from the respective Captain Marvel rogues gallery figures? It'd be interesting to see who was the worst offender- it looks like Sivana and Mister Mind at the moment. Although the question is, are there redacted episodes from Captain Nazi's time as a servant of the Third Reich that would contribute to his depravity count? Or since then, after his revival? And why would any subsequent supervillain be willing to work with an open Nazi? At least some would feel repugnance at his past conduct or contempt for his mindless racism and anti-Semitism.
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Post by DocQuantum on Nov 3, 2023 3:16:11 GMT
From the few stories I've read featuring Captain Nazi, he was typically used overseas, mostly in America. I think he tried to poison an entire U.S. Army encampment once, but was stopped. He was a lot more cold and calculating than more recent depictions have given him credit for. The story that reintroduced him in the '90s, for example, made him out to be some crazed madman, when that wasn't how he was originally portrayed. He was more like a surgical instrument for Nazi Germany. And he behaved more like a sneering, effete European-type villain than a wantonly murderous madman.
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 3, 2023 23:11:03 GMT
Well, he did murder Freddy Freeman's grandfather, and that's classic continuity. He might have been depicted as an effete European style villain, but that was because the writers were using the depiction of Kaiser era WW1 Germans as their blueprint, and most of the Allied nations were ignorant of the full depravity and stygian evil of Nazi Germany when it came to the Holocaust until war's end in 1945. And if he was also cold and calculating, doesn't that indicate that if it suited his needs, he would engage in coldly calculated execution and slaughter? We know nothing about what else he might have done between appearances in Marvel Family instalments. It would be in original character for him to assist his regime when it was in ascendancy, no matter what the cost in human life. Remember, one suspects a lot of redaction also goes on. It would be instructive to take a good long look at the character and probe his underlying continuity and motivation for his acts and extrapolate what else he might have done. I accept we're not talking about the UBA's Ubermensch here, but in a way, Captain Nazi's rationality makes him a more deadly potential assailant.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Nov 4, 2023 11:38:08 GMT
Reading his original stories, Captain Nazi always felt more like a Nazi Captain America to me than a Nazi Superman, even when his power levels gradually rose to match Captain Marvel's
I don't think Captain Nazi has many moral or scruples, except that he is totally devoted to the principles of Nazism. Whatever his Fuhrer told him to do, he would do. If Hitler told him to blow up New York City, he would do it. If Hitler told him to rescue to Aryan civilians from the Baltic before the Russians invaded, he would do that too. When Captain Nazi kills people, it's rarely personal (unless they are subhumans, or the Marvel Family)
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Post by johnreiter902 on Nov 7, 2023 4:03:17 GMT
Getting back on the subject of comparing Luthor with Sivana. . .
Luthor's hands aren't lily white either. Even though I maintain that he clearly prefers the threat of force to actual force, and mostly only tries to kill Superman, there have been a few times where Luthor deliberately tries to kill, or plans to kill, large numbers of people. It only happens 9 times, out of his entire career of about 200 issues
Superboy Vol 2 #14 Luthor causes an avalanche during a community picnic, so he can gauge whether he managed to disrupt Superboy's powers
Action Comics Vol 1 #294 Stole the entire supply of radium (essential for their life) from Roxxas, and allowed a flock of metal-eating birds to attack them to cover his escape. Also stole the Cosmic clock which regulates their solar system from the Cyberne
Action Comics Vol 1 #544 designed a contingency plan to destroy Metropolis in the event of his death
Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen Vol 1 #87 planned to use stolen kryptonian weapons to destroy the Earth's cities one by one until the governments surrendered to him
Superman Vol 1 #170 planned to use his vibration ray to destroy the United Nations building
Action Comics Vol 1 #199 destroyed a dam near Metropolis because the people would not pay his protection money
Superboy Vol 1 #159 hijacked Superboy's Superboy Robots and used them to cause disasters around the world
DC Special Series Vol 1 #26 tried to destroy the entire Earth in order to kill Superman (Superman is shocked, and mentions in the story that this seems out of character for Luthor)
Crisis on Infinite Earths Vol 1 #9 Causes an ice age on Earth-S, uncontrollable plant growth on Earth-X, and mass fires on Earth-4, and threatens to blow up all five Earths unless they surrender (normally, I don't count threats, but his conversation with Brainiac indicates he was willing to follow through with it, though he could have been lying to Brainiac)
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 7, 2023 21:29:12 GMT
Perhaps Luthor's out of character behaviour in those instances is due to bipolar disorder and he was having manic episodes at those points? It's worth retconning that possible explanation for an apparently aberrant moral compass to explain what seems to be inexplicable turns toward the darkness. Perhaps he was simply off his meds and having a nihilist cognitive turn? Perhaps the chemicals within his lab that made him bald and turned him against Superboy were neurotoxic and have gone on to permanently warp his perceptions? Perhaps he takes antidepressants or antipsychotics to ward off his darker moments but can't always access them in time, hence the above?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Nov 7, 2023 23:57:47 GMT
Perhaps Luthor's out of character behaviour in those instances is due to bipolar disorder and he was having manic episodes at those points? It's worth retconning that possible explanation for an apparently aberrant moral compass to explain what seems to be inexplicable turns toward the darkness. Perhaps he was simply off his meds and having a nihilist cognitive turn? Perhaps the chemicals within his lab that made him bald and turned him against Superboy were neurotoxic and have gone on to permanently warp his perceptions? Perhaps he takes antidepressants or antipsychotics to ward off his darker moments but can't always access them in time, hence the above? This is generally my opinion. Superman mentions in one issue that Luthor walks the fine line between sanity and insanity and sometimes, when the pressure gets too great, he snaps. I imagine he always regrets it afterwards
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 8, 2023 3:32:53 GMT
The Abraham Lincoln Superboy vignette certainly leads one to suspect that.
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