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Post by dans on Apr 13, 2024 15:04:23 GMT
Terminology - what is the Chaotic equivalent of a Lord of Order called? In some places it is "Lord of Chaos"; in at least one story on 5EP, Zanadu is referred to repeatedly as 'Master of Chaos'. Are they equivalent? Might the servants of Chaos actually have ranks, and if so, is Master of Chaos above or below Lord of Chaos?
Wotan has recently been promoted to being a Lord of Chaos, so if there are ranks, that is probably the lowest. I added that Wotan had been promoted to fill the spot of Burr, who had also recently ascended to a new role in the ranks of Chaos, perhaps residing in another level of the universe, certainly such a big shot that he is now no longer concerned with minor affairs (such as promotion of Chaos on a merely Galactic scale). Would those on the level of Burr remain in this universe or go to some meta-universe? What would the remaining Lords of Chaos / Masters of Chaos call those of their former peers who have now ascended to this new superior level?
Edit: I called that next level "Elder of Chaos" and "Elder Chaotic" in a Vic Valor story.
Do you suppose that there might be a 'Junior' or 'Associate' rank, which is the rank Wotan actually holds, or is the rank of the most junior automatically assumed to be equivalent to the one who is just about ready to ascend?
Do you think the Lords of Order (whatever their rank) deal with each other as fellows worthy of respect, or is their association cutthroat and bloodthirsty? Do they regard the Lords of Chaos as respected foes or disgusting slime dripping from their claws?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 13, 2024 16:20:32 GMT
Terminology - what is the Chaotic equivalent of a Lord of Order called? In some places it is "Lord of Chaos"; in at least one story on 5EP, Zanadu is referred to repeatedly as 'Master of Chaos'. Are they equivalent? Might the servants of Chaos actually have ranks, and if so, is Master of Chaos above or below Lord of Chaos? Wotan has recently been promoted to being a Lord of Chaos, so if there are ranks, that is probably the lowest. I added that Wotan had been promoted to fill the spot of Burr, who had also recently ascended to a new role in the ranks of Chaos, perhaps residing in another level of the universe, certainly such a big shot that he is now no longer concerned with minor affairs (such as promotion of Chaos on a merely Galactic scale). Would those on the level of Burr remain in this universe or go to some meta-universe? What would the remaining Lords of Chaos / Masters of Chaos call those of their former peers who have now ascended to this new superior level? Edit: I called that next level " Elder of Chaos" and " Elder Chaotic" in a Vic Valor story. Do you suppose that there might be a 'Junior' or 'Associate' rank, which is the rank Wotan actually holds, or is the rank of the most junior automatically assumed to be equivalent to the one who is just about ready to ascend? Do you think the Lords of Order (whatever their rank) deal with each other as fellows worthy of respect, or is their association cutthroat and bloodthirsty? Do they regard the Lords of Chaos as respected foes or disgusting slime dripping from their claws? I always assumed that Lord of Chaos and Master of Chaos were synonymous, more or less. However, I don't think there would be any issue if you wanted to establish ranks within the Lords of Order and Chaos. Certainly, we know that some are clearly more powerful than others.
I think the Lords of Chaos are contentious by definition. It is their nature to buck every system, break any rules, and never agree on anything. In contrast, I imagine that the Lords of Order are naturally harmonious. They are naturally inclined to work together as a team, in full agreement, and change as little as possible.
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Apr 13, 2024 16:59:01 GMT
I agree. I see them as being in competition with one another if not at war with one another.
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Post by dans on Apr 13, 2024 17:32:54 GMT
I always assumed that Lord of Chaos and Master of Chaos were synonymous, more or less. However, I don't think there would be any issue if you wanted to establish ranks within the Lords of Order and Chaos. Certainly, we know that some are clearly more powerful than others. I don't want to establish ranks, I mostly want to be sure I don't step on continuity toes. Thanks!
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Post by dans on Apr 13, 2024 17:42:27 GMT
I agree. I see them as being in competition with one another if not at war with one another. OK, so if Burr recently ascended to a 'higher level' and cleared the way for a new Lord of Chaos (Wotan) they must have fought over the promotion rather than voted on who deserved it most. So was there a secret war behind Wotan getting promoted, with Wotan winning out over all the other contenders? Who would the other contenders have been? Why didn't we see some evidence of this secret war on Earth 2? (Hey, maybe it occurred in the 5th dimension? so only Myx knows about it?) Or may be if you accumulate enough power, the title accrues to you automatically? Or maybe Wotan found an artifact that belonged to an earlier Lord of Chaos, like the Helmet of Nabu... Wow! Do we know if the E2 analog to the Helmet of Chaos Burt Belker found in the E1 Superboy story has ever been found on Earth 2? Or do we assume that the Helmet of Nabu IS the E2 analog? (Say, I wonder why Nabu left his helmet on Earth 2? Do we know that? Did he 'die' on Earth 2?)
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 13, 2024 18:09:05 GMT
I agree. I see them as being in competition with one another if not at war with one another. Do we know if the E2 analog to the Helmet of Chaos Burt Belker found in the E1 Superboy story has ever been found on Earth 2? Or do we assume that the Helmet of Nabu IS the E2 analog? (Say, I wonder why Nabu left his helmet on Earth 2? Do we know that? Did he 'die' on Earth 2?) In the original comic, I think it was clearly implied that the Helmet of Chaos of Earth-1 was the Earth-1 version of the Helmet of Nabu, which was why Dr. Chaos' costume was a color-reversed version of Dr. Fate's.
However, since this was not specifically stated (it couldn't be, since Superboy had not met Dr. Fate yet) you have some freedom for interpretation there
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 13, 2024 19:00:24 GMT
Here are my thoughts off the top of my head. Feel free to ignore them if they don't work.
I don't see Lords of Chaos in terms of ranks, but more in terms of roles or territories -- and not galaxy-sized territories, either, since we know several exist on the Earth itself. The powerful sorcerer Wotan could have been made a Lord of Chaos for his own merits without another Lord of Chaos having to step aside, though that might have been done for Wotan to take on a new role or territory previously held by another Lord of Chaos, who would move on to a more important role or territory.
As John points out, the Chaos Lords are chaotic by nature, so they probably don't have any named ranks at all -- but they would undoubtedly have a pecking order (there's that word again, "order"), since a newer Lord of Chaos would be seen as an interloper if he tried to interfere with an older Chaos Lord, something Wotan would never do, since he would realize there is a pecking order of sorts. Wotan would instead seek to establish his reputation by greater and greater deeds for Chaos.
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 13, 2024 19:01:25 GMT
IIRC, by the 23rd century, Wotan is still a Lord of Chaos and has his own planet, so presumably by that time he has established a greater reputation for himself.
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 13, 2024 19:03:49 GMT
Another thing that we know about Lords of Chaos is that they tend to be very different from one another, at least in appearance. Flaw and Child, for example, are quite different than Kestrel or Anti-Fate.
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Post by dans on Apr 14, 2024 1:16:43 GMT
I guess when a Lord of Chaos decides to hang up his helmet, he just goes, not bothering to name a successor. I'm thinking maybe there is a 'higher realm' of Chaos, which provides a much more rewarding life, but the Elders of Chaos who are already there defend the place fairly well and it takes the accumulation of a good amount of power to force your way in. And if a Lord of Chaos has a lot of personal possessions, he probably takes the best ones with him when he goes.
(I am trying to rationalize some stuff I wrote into earlier stories - about a Lord of Order named Burr who 'ascended' to a different realm of Chaos, and Wotan became his successor. When I really think about it, it doesn't seem to work... Perhaps it is as random as a roll of a giant cosmic D100 and Wotan's number came up?)
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Post by jonclark on Apr 14, 2024 4:25:30 GMT
I'd figure being linked to chaos (as opposed to order) that Lords/Masters of Chaos would be less easy to define. Anything about one Lord of Chaos being true of another would smack too much of order and systematic rules. More likely the very fact they are serving Chaos would make their traits random and contradictory.
Think of the Joker's bit about preferring his history to be "multiple choice" and then apply the same criterion to answer any quaestion about the Lords of Chaos.
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Post by dans on Apr 14, 2024 9:33:43 GMT
yeah, I suppose what I said may be the closest a human can come to understanding what really happened. Maybe Wotan discovered a weakness and actually somehow forced Burr out of his role... I guess I'll just leave it the way it is currently reported. Thanks all!
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Post by dans on Apr 14, 2024 10:53:08 GMT
Do we know why Nabu abandoned his host body and retreated into his helmet back in Egyptian times? It can't be good for the cause of Order for one of the most powerful warriors in the cause of Order to just take a break and abandon his duties, even for a short period of time... after all, Chaos never takes a coffee break!
Does it seem possible or feasible that there was something on Earth Nabu wanted to protect (something that Kent might have unwittingly unleashed when he took Nabu's helmet from where it was discovered?) Or more likely that the presence of Nabu's helmet (with Nabu inside) was suppressing something Nabu didn't even know about that was gradually released when the helm was removed?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 14, 2024 12:05:36 GMT
Do we know why Nabu abandoned his host body and retreated into his helmet back in Egyptian times? It can't be good for the cause of Order for one of the most powerful warriors in the cause of Order to just take a break and abandon his duties, even for a short period of time... after all, Chaos never takes a coffee break! Does it seem possible or feasible that there was something on Earth Nabu wanted to protect (something that Kent might have unwittingly unleashed when he took Nabu's helmet from where it was discovered?) Or more likely that the presence of Nabu's helmet (with Nabu inside) was suppressing something Nabu didn't even know about that was gradually released when the helm was removed? Perhaps his body was destroyed in battle, and he was forced to enter the helmet
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Post by dans on Apr 14, 2024 12:52:52 GMT
That is what I'm thinking too, just wondering if it is established somewhere so I don't step on any contoenity!
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