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Post by redsycorax on Nov 23, 2023 21:40:42 GMT
One thing that's always interested me about the limits that the magical barrier that prevented the Justice Society (and presumably, other Allied metahumans) from operating in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is that it wouldn't have been effective on JSA members who had no metahuman abilities, which means that Dr Midnite, the Atom, [Batman (?)] , Sandman*, Mr Terrific, Wildcat and Black Canary could all operate behind enemy lines. Clearly, Batman and Robin would have been too busy on the home front back in Gotham, but the others could have been useful intelligence assets. *Perhaps, particularly, Sandman, given his abrupt departure from the Justice Society? Was that why he was later absent from the JSA? Did it involve covert espionage in Occupied Europe? Midnite's night vision could have been an asset in blackout settings, while Wildcat and Black Canary would certainly have strong combat proficiency.
It's particularly possible that any JSA "away team" consisting of its non-metahuman members might be involved in finding out what was happening in wartime Occupied Paris, given the enduring threat of a possible "Operation Sea Lion" Nazi invasion of Britain in theory until Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa against Russia, and in preparation for D-Day to learn Nazi intel about preparation for the storming of the Normandy beaches in 1944. I've got some ideas for an Elseworlds story, given that it involves my UK Victory Legion character Midnight Angel as well as her beau, former UBA member and ex-Nazi defector Georg von Tregor (Horned Owl). It'd involve the Nazi Gestapo adjuncts in Paris, the Camargue, as they try to assist the Nazi parent organisation in searching for the spoils of war, including any useful covert Allied high tech that might help turn the tide back in the Axis favour. I think I might have also found an Axis-aligned French paranormal group, the Universal White Brotherhood, who could be invoked to explain why France didn't erect an anti-Nazi thaumaturgic barrier as the British probably did (and I still haven't been able to find a copy of Katherine Kurtz' Lammas Night to crib off and adapt for that particular scenario, unfortunately).
Source: Christopher Othen: King of Nazi Paris: Henri Lafont and the Gangsters of the French Gestapo: London: Biteback: 2020
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Post by johnreiter902 on Nov 24, 2023 0:16:49 GMT
I suspect the allies were cautious about employing their unpowered mystery men overseas since, as tough as they are, one man alone can't do much against the armies of Nazi Germany, and the massive propaganda gains the Nazis would get from killing a mystery man would be worrying. However, I agree with you, there were probably some missions, high priority ones were they need the best of the best to recover key information, rescue an important agent, or something similar. This was probably when the UBA fought the JSA most often.
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Post by DocQuantum on Nov 24, 2023 1:57:05 GMT
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 24, 2023 22:59:11 GMT
And given the depowering barrier, the JSA/All-Star Squadron /(Victory Legion) away teams would have to consist of nonpowered operatives and it would make sense to have them in numbers aplenty should the UBA or some of its individual members show up. To facilitate the task in question, Midnight Angel and Horned Owl will be accompanying them due to their higher mission profile in this context. Midnight Angel particularly has friendships with some of the JSA contingent that help bond them as a team. One question- obviously, the anti-metahuman magic barrier around the Third Reich starts to fray and erode as the war draws to a close, but how could that be explained? Are Allied mages able to overcome the barrier spell due to (say) the deaths of the mages who helped cast it around the Reich, utilising the Spear of Destiny for that purpose?
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Post by reichsmark on Nov 24, 2023 23:27:01 GMT
I assumed it was simply that as the German forces were driven back the sphere of influence shrunk with them. I believe the original spell by Dragon King was to "convert" any meta heroes in Axis controlled territory. As their forces retreated, so too did the barrier.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Nov 25, 2023 1:39:12 GMT
I assumed it was simply that as the German forces were driven back the sphere of influence shrunk with them. I believe the original spell by Dragon King was to "convert" any meta heroes in Axis controlled territory. As their forces retreated, so too did the barrier. This was also my understanding.
Magic is very conceptually based. The spell specifically affected non-freindly metahumans on Axis land. However, as the ownership of that land become more and more uncertain, the strength of the barrier wanes, and eventually falls back to lands that are still firmly axis
By the end of the war, the barrier likely only included part of Germany in Europe (if that much), and Japan, Korea, and occupied China in Asia |
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Post by jonclark on Nov 25, 2023 8:35:33 GMT
I wouldn't rule out some behind enemy lines stuff, but i suspect a lot of it would have been kept covert- so at most it was Doctor Charles McNider not Dr Mid-nite who would be sent and more likely even McNider would have been using a cover name.
As John mentioned earlier they'd want to avoid any propaganda victory should the Axis capture/kill one of the JSA. There also would be some fear of undermining the regular troops ("Sure, we do all the grunt work and then Captin flippin' America shows up and makes us look like pikers") if you had costumed heroes involved. Plus the better use of surprise if the enemy has no idea Johnny Quick. Aquaman. or Doctor Mid-nite is even around.
And was the sphere's effect making the more powerful heroes become Axis shills or was it depowering in our continuity? Cause i thought the depowering was a Post-Crisis idea and involved a Nazi operative called Parsifal.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Nov 26, 2023 19:00:10 GMT
And was the sphere's effect making the more powerful heroes become Axis shills or was it depowering in our continuity? Cause i thought the depowering was a Post-Crisis idea and involved a Nazi operative called Parsifal. You are correct that the depowering was post-crisis, and so it is not in our continuity. The sphere causes superheroes to join the axis powers.
Personally, I like the depowering better, but it is not pre-crisis canon
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 26, 2023 22:26:20 GMT
I can provide everyone with the issue involved in this context: All-Star Squadron 4 (December 1981), and you're right- it turns Allied metahumans into Axis pawns and the Dragon King was responsible. Which still doesn't remove the possibility that British mages were able to rig up their own depowering field for the UBA, should they venture over the United Kingdom, thus restraining what would have been a clear and immediate danger to the United Kingdom otherwise. I'm going to stick with that in my planned story, given that it's a useful story device and they'd need something like that to stop Ubermensch and Gunda wreaking havoc otherwise: dc.fandom.com/wiki/All_Star_Squadron_Vol_1_4It was still operative in 1942 and converted Earth-S' Captain Marvel into a Nazi pawn when he attacked the Earth-Two Superman, JSA and All-Star Squadron: dc.fandom.com/wiki/All_Star_Squadron_Vol_1_36Speaking of which, if anyone's interested in setting up a Times Past story set in Japan, Prince Daka, Sumo, Tsunami and Kung all face the JSA/All Stars for the first time in pre-Crisis 1942: dc.fandom.com/wiki/All_Star_Squadron_Vol_1_42And the Nazi metahumans Night and Fog were active in the United States in 1942. Which also leaves the question of why they were dispatched there instead of the United Kingdom. Mind you, if the British mages had created their depowering field around Great Britain by then, they wouldn't have been able to do so. I suspect that the United States might not have been able to do so because of the disruption of Native American magic by settler encroachment on their land and the loss of talismans of power that could have been used: dc.fandom.com/wiki/All_Star_Squadron_Vol_1_44Indeed, the fact that Baron Blitzkrieg is able to attack the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia shortly afterward seems to indicate that the United States has no such Axis power dampening field operative to defend it against hostile metahumans, although given the density of metahumans already in the United States, arguably it would be unnecessary in their case: dc.fandom.com/wiki/All_Star_Squadron_Vol_1_46(Now this is interesting, though. Why did the Nazis select Baron Blitzkrieg for this mission, instead of Ubermensch? My guess is that either Ubermensch's superserum hadn't been developed by then, or the addictive and experimental effects of that serum meant Ubermensch was on a metaphorical 'short leash' and could only be used within the Reich territories. Or possibly also Nazi factionalism and bureaucracy interfered and Blitzkrieg was able to pull rank against the novice UBA asset). And there's the matter of Wotan in the United Kingdom here. Quite possibly, Wotan might have still been affected by the depowering field around the United Kingdom as he merely seems to use mesmerism to enslave the Shining Knight to his cause in pre-Crisis 1942. Either that, or there was a gap in the UK depowering field that sorcerors like Wotan could temporarily exploit and which was repaired after this incident: dc.fandom.com/wiki/All_Star_Squadron_Vol_1_48 |
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Post by DocQuantum on Nov 26, 2023 22:53:15 GMT
Specifically, it corrupts anyone who is magically based (Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Johnny Thunder, the Spectre, Doctor Fate, etc.) or peculiarly vulnerable to magic (Superman). But it does not affect any metahumans whose powers are scientific in nature, such as the Flash, etc.
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Post by DocQuantum on Nov 26, 2023 22:56:53 GMT
And a version of Parsifal does exist on Earth-Two, but he has yet to be fully introduced. JSAGL used him in an unfinished story, which I plan on finishing. This Parsifal isn't the same as the one from James Robinson's THE GOLDEN AGE, who was a fairly passive player whose very presence weakened any heroes in the area, but seems to be more like a living Spear of Destiny or Holy Grail in that he has those activated artifacts' ability to corrupt heroes who are vulnerable to magic toward Nazism when he is in their presence, no matter where he is, and he is also an active fighter who would be considered a German hero at the time. Still working on this one, so my memory might have a few details that differ from my notes.
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 26, 2023 23:19:25 GMT
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the Spear of Destiny might well be a Christian artefact (allegedly, it was the same spear used by a Roman legionary to pierce Christ's side during the Crucifixion) and yet, it can be utilised by the manifest evil of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? Although it might be a different, Norse pagan Spear of Destiny from (say) Valhalla or Asgard which could therefore be used by Axis agents in this context. I think the latter solution would be a more appropriate fix and would circumvent the thorny theological and ethical problems otherwise.
As for Parsifal, I have some ideas for that character as well. Doc, I don't know if you plan to use the classical Wagnerian background for that character, but if you do, there's a possible link to Gundra the Valkyrie there. In Wagner's Parsifal opera, Parsifal shows up in Montsalvat, a kingdom whose king has been severely injured by the Spear of Destiny and which is also haunted by a woman named Gundrigiyya who tries to seduce Parsifal, who manages to fend her off. At the end, Gundrigiyya is freed from a sorcerous curse. I'd suggest that in that context, Parsifal might have actually freed Gundra from enslavement to Klingsor the sorceror and that therefore there is a bond there.
After the end of the Round Table, Parsifal survives the climactic battle against Mordred and Morgaine in which Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Gawain and the others are killed and somehow falls under the influence of Klingsor again. Klingsor duplicates the same enslavement spell he used against Gundrigiyya/Gundra earlier against Parsifal and places him in suspended animation. He is revived in the 1940s as a Nazi asset. Only the Grail can cure him, but that's across the English Channel in what remains of Camelot...
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Post by dans on Nov 27, 2023 1:13:12 GMT
I wondered about that too - but if it was actually the spear that pierced Christ's side, it was against him... I don't know much about the legend, though...
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Post by redsycorax on Nov 27, 2023 1:19:28 GMT
I think the point about sacred relics like the Holy Grail and Spear of Destiny is that they are imbued with the sanctity of the individual that they encountered, whether Christ or one of the Catholic or Orthodox saints. In which case, surely the spear cannot be used for an evil purpose, precisely because it is hallowed by the presence of the being whose proximity it contacted. Mind you, if it was an Asgardian or Valhallan spear, that problem wouldn't arise in the first place...
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Post by jonclark on Nov 27, 2023 2:01:35 GMT
The Spear has (at least Post-Crisis) been used as a check on the Spectre which seems to imply that it's power is somehow a counterbalance to God's agent. Maybe it actually gets its power because it specifically was involved in Christ's death but not in a "blessed by God" way but a "powered to harm divine things" way.
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