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Post by dave on Oct 14, 2021 4:13:57 GMT
Does anyone remember the Adam Warlock stories a bout a counter earth created by the High Evolutionary? The Fawcett Universe has its own version from Captain marvel Adventures Vol 1 #95. Captain Marvel discovers another Earth in continuous orbit around the sun directly behind the sun at all times. Amazingly enough this cCounter Earth was going to crash on our own but Captain Marvel himself moved into another orbit.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Oct 14, 2021 12:38:58 GMT
Yes, I remember that story. America was under a president called George Washington, and had just concluded a major war with Europe, which was still under the Roman Empire
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Post by dans on Oct 14, 2021 13:07:38 GMT
Since history is so different on Counter Earth S, perhaps there are no super heroes there... I wonder if we might assume that Shazam helped Marvel move Counter Earth S to a new orbit and actually shunted it to a different universe where there wasn't already an Earth orbiting Sol - so they ended up in a universe that looks identical to them but there was no Earth S on the other side of the Sun. And now, of course, their new universe was destroyed...
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Post by johnreiter902 on Oct 15, 2021 0:33:04 GMT
In the story, it was stated that counter earth had no version of Captain Marvel
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Post by redsycorax on Oct 15, 2021 1:01:55 GMT
There are some scientific problems with the concept of a Counter-Earth: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-EarthSo, ironically enough, Captain Marvel Adventures actually got it right! Astrophysics suggests that a Counter-Earth configuration in the same orbit as ours would crash into the Earth as the story suggests. In order for it not to do so, it would have to match the orbital momentum of Earth exactly in order to remain 'invisible' to our world. And then there's the question of Venus-S, which would gravitationally affect any 'Counter-Earth' on 'exactly' the 'opposite' side of the Sun- not to mention the fact that as soon as Mariner 2 reached Venus-S in 1962, which has a faster orbital momentum than ours, it might well be able to detect any electromagnetic and gravitational emanations from any Counter-Earth. Even if Mariner 2 hadn't, the Soviet Venera probes would also be able to do so: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariner_2In order for it not to collide with Earth, any 'Counter-Earth' would have to be an artificially constructed entity (as in Marvel's Adam Warlock series) and somehow shielded from any NASA probes that might otherwise discover its existence. I suspect that for that not to have happened already and earlier in their shared history to "Counter-Earth" and Earth-S, if Universe-S has laws of gravity and momentum analogous to our own, "Counter-Earth" may actually have therefore originally been an alternate Earth that intruded into Universe-S (perhaps it entered a singularity in its own universe?) and got into the jam that Captain Marvel extricated it from. His action may have reversed the original trajectory and directed it through the unseen singularity back into its original universe.
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Post by dans on Oct 15, 2021 1:23:25 GMT
I like that idea - it popped in from another universe, and Marvel actually sent it home to the universe it came from...
In one of the JLA/JSA crossovers there was a bad guy who was somehow causing Earth 1 and Earth 2 to collide - maybe there is an untold story involved here, with someone as-yet unrevealed trying to destroy both of these Earths by smashing them together... It might even have been an opening move by the Anti-monitor to eliminate the Marvels before the final Crisis...
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Post by redsycorax on Oct 15, 2021 1:31:08 GMT
An interesting theory, dans. Perhaps it could have been a novice reconaissance action by the Anti-Monitor or other trans-universal scale menace directed to negate the Marvel Family as you suggest. So, was "Counter-Earth" "collateral damage" in this context, or would it also have eventually developed its own metahumans who might also constitute a threat to such an entity? From the sound of it, it had eighteenth century technology if its United States had just successfully fought the Roman Empire for its independence.
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Post by dans on Oct 15, 2021 2:12:36 GMT
If we go with the Anti-monitor, he probably worried about the possibility of Counter Earth developing powerful metas that would join the battle against him... There is probably an Ibis-stick on Counter Earth, The old wizard predates the Roman Empire, but he may have to find a new mentor to replace Solomon. And there may have been a 'Counter Universe' Krypton too...
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Post by redsycorax on Oct 15, 2021 2:46:19 GMT
In the original Adventures of Superman radio serial, Krypton itself was a Counter-Earth!: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Superman_(radio_series)And given that there are several other planets in Rao's solar system, the same astrophysical limitations would apply to any "Counter-Krypton" there as would apply to a Counter Earth in our own. And remember, we don't know for sure that Shazam only deputised Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr to act as his agents. There may be other untold historical "Marvels" throughout Earth-S history. As for the replacement S knowledge/wisdom figure, it could be Seshat (Egyptian goddess), Saraswati/Savitri (Hindu goddess), Saga or Snotra (Norse goddesses): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_knowledge_deities
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 20, 2023 0:55:40 GMT
Okay, I'm reopening this thread due to updated scientific developments. Although I didn't think of it at the time I originally contributed, there is one possible circumstance where 'counter earths' could temporarily exist- but I'd have to stress the strictly temporary and relatively ephemeral nature of this co-existence. When solar systems such as ours originally form, there are more than just a relatively small number of protoplanetary 'embryos' present and as a consequence, interplanetary space is more chaotic and congested than is the case later in its history. Some of those embryonic protoplanets end up crashing into others, resulting in the disintegration of some of those bodies if they're roughly the same size or (as occurred with the Earth and the Moon) formation of relatively large planetary satellites from the debris of any prior collision if it was a suitable mass. In the case of the gas and ice giants within our own solar system, smaller protoplanets might have been eaten by them or become their satellites if they were in their orbital vicinity. Due to gravitational turbulence if planets are in comparatively close orbital tracks, it's also possible that some planets got either flung out of our solar system altogether and are currently rogue planets, or into eccentric orbits (which may explain why our solar system has no superearth large terrestroid planets- it's possible the elusive "Planet Nine" might be one- or one theory goes that originally there might have been a fifth gas giant before it got ejected from our solar system when Jupiter and Saturn lay closer together, given their high planetary mass). Thus, any Counter-Earth would not have had a particularly stable or permanent orbital trajectory and wouldn't have stayed on exactly the opposite side of the Sun for long. Doctor Who gets it right when it comes to Mondas, the home world of durable series villains the Cybermen, which seems to have begun as a Counter-Earth before it drifted away (or was ejected?) from our solar system. Why is this relevant now? Well, as some of the scientifically interested individuals amongst the rest of you might have figured out, there has been a sighting of what may be two exoplanets sharing almost the same orbital track- PDS 70 b appears to have a dwarf protoplanet beginning to form at one of its Trojan points. PDS 70b and its apparent satellite/co-orbital dwarf planet, as well as a further gas giant, PDS 70c, orbit a young variable T Tauri star (only about ten million years old) around 370 light years away from our solar system. If this is further independently validated and this isn't just a quirk of the imaging technology used, then the explanation that I've suggested above may be probable- PDS 70's solar system may have been too young to get rid of all of its surplus embryonic exoplanets as yet, and we may be witnessing the formation of a large planetary satellite akin to our own or a temporary state of affairs that may end in an eventual planetary collision similar to the one that formed our own Moon. However, given the size of PDS 70b (estimated to be larger than Jupiter), it'll probably be a light snack. (Did I say "Jupiter"? That whole scenario sounds a lot like the mythological Greco-Roman god Cronos/Saturn, who was also in the habit of eating his offspring, until Zeus/Jupiter escaped and liberated his siblings.) To conclude then, any Counter-Earth in the Captain Marvel story outlined above would therefore have to have been an intruder alternate Earth which was introduced into its solar system by a malevolent third party (possibly the Anti-Monitor or a Universe-S cosmic scale villain), if Universe-S has laws of physics, electromagnetic and gravitational constants comparable to our own. If that is the case, any Counter-Earth could not have survived undetected in a stable orbit exactly matching our own orbital momentum for a prolonged period, especially when Earth became able to send interplanetary probes to Mercury, Venus or Mars. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDS_70
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