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Post by redsycorax on Feb 11, 2023 2:54:23 GMT
There seemed to be something interesting between Earths One and Two in early JSA/JLA team ups back in early Silver Age times. More than once, supervillains or even innocent explorers tried to crash Earths One and Two together, or were travelling between the two alternate universes when something happened. T.O Morrow was able to create an interim transmatter universe with solid ground at one point. There was also an entrance way to the Universe of Anti-Matter which seemed to be quite different from the one Green Lantern or Qwardians used to travel to each others universes. Oddly enough, this doesn't seem to be the case between any of the other DC alternate Earths. The only things that come to mind otherwise are the Rock of Eternity, which apparently permits instantaneous travel between any two alternate universes (Earths One, Two, Three and S in one Superman/Captain Marvel pre-Crisis teamup) or the Green Lantern-spawned semi-permanent power bubble prison for the Crime Syndicate, which must have grown weaker over time, given the Syndicators had escaped from it and returned to Earth-Three during the early eighties.
Still, this does sound like an interesting point of departure. What else might be lurking there and how could it affect Earths One, Two and elsewhere in Times Past? Are there artefacts from advanced civilisations elsewhere in the multiverse? What about penal institutions for multiverse criminals akin to the prison bubble for the Crime Syndicate? What might have happened if Earths One and Two had merged safely, given that the constant anxiety was that if the two Earths occupied the same space at the same time, there would be an almighty explosion. And what about elsewhere in the Multiverse? Why did we never see Venus-Two, Venus-S, Mars-Two or Mars-S? What would a Crisis on Two Venuses or Marses be like? Does Alpha Centauri-Two have a Rann-Two in orbit around it? Is there a Thanagar-Two? The only inhabited worlds elsewhere in the Multiverse we've seen thus far have been Kryptons-One and Two, given Superman, Supergirl, Power Girl, the Phantom Zone criminals, the three criminal Krypton-Two astronauts, and Kandorians have backstory there. And we only ever saw Krypton-Two in its death throes, given Superman and Power Girl's escape and subsequent empowerment.
And what happened on the Marses and Venuses during the Crisis on Infinite "Earths"?
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Post by dans on Feb 11, 2023 12:24:08 GMT
Regarding the 'dimension between the dimensions' I have always considered this as 'Limbo' a mostly empty, infinite space, and sort of assumed that it was what was between ALL the dimensions. But if that's the case it would by now have become a super-highway between universes with all the people who are searching for such a highway...
All those other alternate universe planets probably exist in most of our 6 universes - although maybe not every planet in every 5EP universe. We know a little bit about Krypton 3 (depending on Ultraman's history, I think... in the early history of the Crime Syndicate Ultraman was a normal human who had been injected with alien DNA, but I think now he is the son of the biggest crime lord of Krypton, who ended up destroying the planet?) I think there is a Martian in the Crime Syndicate now, which implies a Mars 3. And we know that Captain Atom's universe has a Venus.
I guess my conception of the multiverse was like a sealed globe full of air with a bunch of tiny hollow marbles filling the globe and the airspace in between the marbles is the in between space you are talking about while each marble is a universe...
So your posts brought the Phantom Zone to mind. Is it the same Phantom Zone for all universes, or is there a different Phantom Zone for each universe?
Specific planets or even stars don't have a major impact on history, though, so the absence of
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Feb 11, 2023 16:50:34 GMT
A few stories have shown a limbo realm between Earths like one from issues of WF where creatures made Black Canary their queen and of course some stories on the site like one "The Hounds of Limbo" featuring the Green Lanterns and the Flashes have explored such a realm. Dan, you are right about Ultraman. His evil dad (Jur-L) was the one shown in a Nightwing and Flamebird story from Superman Family.
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Post by redsycorax on Feb 12, 2023 1:35:05 GMT
To my knowledge, though, there was never any Phantom Zone featured contingent to anywhere other than Krypton-One, although Phantom Girl of the Legion of Super Heroes is able to enter and depart it at will without a Phantom Zone projector, which means that there's obviously permeability insofar as Bgztlian residents are concerned. To me, this implies that either (a) the Phantom Zone is a specific four dimensional universe accessible only from Earth-One or Bgztl (b) It's not the only one, given that Zor-El and Alura found sanctuary in the Survival Zone, implied to be another four-dimensional universe distinct from the Phantom Zone, until Supergirl released them (c) alternate Kryptonian Jor-El analogues didn't discover analogous Phantom Zones related to their specific universes, which may or may not exist (d) in any case, we never saw AU versions of the Phantom Zone denizens outside Earth-One's universe. This implies that they may not exist, or that alternate Kryptons had alternative correctional arrangements for their worst criminals.
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Post by dans on Feb 12, 2023 3:21:38 GMT
I think you are correct, the Phantom Zone is part of the same 'vibratory dimension' as Earth 1, and the Survival Zone is similar. And they may or may not exist in other vibratory dimensions. Although I did show a Phantom Zone in the universe of John Jarl, whatever universe that is.
I tended to think of the space between the universes as 'Limbo' and I have always assumed that all of the infinite 'real' universes are embedded in the same Limbo - but that doesn't hold up, because I have also written a story in which both Vandal Savage and Mechanique have easy access to their Limbo from their universe - which should give them access to ANY universe. It seems like the space between the E1 universe and the E2 universe is different than the space between E1 and E4, for example.
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Post by jonclark on Feb 12, 2023 5:33:12 GMT
There is the fact that Earth 1 and Earth 2 had the most crossovers and that as a result the "space" between them was the most explored. It's not like we have seen dozens of crossovers between Earths S, X, and 4 where those type of things about the intervening space would be discovered. Given that there seem to be more parallels between Earths 1, 2 and 3 (Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman being nearly exact doppelgangers) it is even possible that they are somehow more connected than the other Earths meaning the area separating them might be more populated/colonized/permeable.
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Post by dans on Feb 12, 2023 12:27:09 GMT
I always felt that of the major Earths, based on what we saw, E1, E2 and E3 are the most closely connected. And that while there 'were' several Earths similar enough to E1 that one might somehow switch universes and live one's life in any of these others and not notice the differences (the spelling of a name of a small town in Kansas is the only difference, for example) and that those have been unreachable since the Crisis. And before the Crisis it was relatively 'easy' to reach one of these other universes - I think Superboy and Supergirl were thrown into other universes via being caught in explosions or struck by lightning. (and didn't Batman once drive into a fog on E1 and end up on E2?).
This closer relationship would likely lead to more thorough exploration of the 'space between the spaces' nearby. As well, the observable characteristics of that space might change frequently and depend a lot on the characteristics and mentality of the observers...
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Post by johnreiter902 on Feb 12, 2023 13:28:37 GMT
We've introduced many alternate version of different planets in our stories, like an Earth-2 version of Thanagar and Rann. However, I suspect that many planets don't have very similar counterparts between universes. This is my reasoning.
I've made a fairly extensive list of the inhabitants of Venus, Mars, and other planets in the solar system on each earth. For the most part, non of the species of Martian on Earth-2 are at all like the Martians of Earth-S, and so on and so forth.
If life exists on (for example) Tamaran-2, it might be nothing like the Tamaranians of Tamaran-1, or the planet might be uninhabited, or uninhabitable.
As far as the Phantom Zone goes, I think Each universe has it's own version of the Phantom Zone. There was actually an Earth-S story (Marvel Family #10 I think) where Sivana tried to trap Captain Marvel in a place he called Dimension 0, which looks a lot like the Phantom Zone. The existence of Krypton-S and a Phantom Zone was confirmed in the Times Future story The New Adventures of Jon Jarl of the Space Patrol
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Post by dans on Feb 12, 2023 17:43:26 GMT
I'm not sure John Jarl is actually on an Earth S of the future; there was never any indication in the John Jarl stories that confirmed that they were occurring in the Earth S universe or some other. But yes, in his universe there was a Krypton and a Phantom Zone - and Krypton is now IN the Phantom Zone.
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Post by redsycorax on Feb 12, 2023 21:14:28 GMT
While Earth-S may have access to a dimension akin to the Phantom Zone, though, and Krypton-S may be there, it may not be the same Phantom Zone as Earth-One's version. It may be a four dimensional universe accessible only to Earth-S, for example. Kryptons Two, Three and X seemed to be either unaware of any such analogous contingent dimensions to their own universes, however. And it's worth repeating the observation that we've never seen any AU Jax-Ur, General Zod or Faora Hu-Ul analogues outside Earth-One's Phantom Zone. To me, this still implies that they may be (a) either undiscovered (b) or are contingent only when it comes to specific alternate universes, such as Earth-S, but not others. Or (c), they may have some other descriptive term than "Phantom Zone." Are there any contingent dimensions related to Earths Two, Three, Four or X that might qualify?
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Post by jonclark on Feb 13, 2023 6:29:29 GMT
Remember the Phantom Zone was actually linked to a living entity called Aethyr- it wasn't actually another dimension in the same sense as Zrfff or Fairyland.
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Post by dans on Feb 13, 2023 14:12:30 GMT
Remember the Phantom Zone was actually linked to a living entity called Aethyr- it wasn't actually another dimension in the same sense as Zrfff or Fairyland. I don't remember that. Was it pre- or post- Crisis? |
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Post by jonclark on Feb 13, 2023 17:26:51 GMT
Remember the Phantom Zone was actually linked to a living entity called Aethyr- it wasn't actually another dimension in the same sense as Zrfff or Fairyland. I don't remember that. Was it pre- or post- Crisis? Pre-Crisis. Steve Gerber's Phantom Zone mini-series revealed it. |
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Post by DocQuantum on Feb 13, 2023 19:01:45 GMT
It’s also a major plot point of several early Earth-1 After the Crisis stories, which featured a Phantom Zone not existing for a few months until it was finally restored.
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Post by redsycorax on Feb 13, 2023 23:14:51 GMT
Aethyr might have been a four dimensional being itself. I remember Gerber's story quite well- it was the one in which former Phantom Zone prisoner Quex-Ul, formerly imprisoned on a charge of slaying endangered Rondors back on Krypton, but who lost his Kryptonian abilities due to Gold K exposure, died. Actually, one thing about that story that was left inconclusive was whether Aethyr's control over the Zone was partial or total. He might have only had direct influence over the areas of the Zone nearer him, and not the region where the Kryptonian Phantom Zone prisoners and Mon-El were held. He might have had minimal control and been a reclusive entity who had retreated there for some reason. Perhaps he was insane. His behaviour certainly seems to suggest it.
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