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Post by johnreiter902 on May 14, 2023 17:15:51 GMT
I just read World's Finest Vol 1 #321, which was the last appearance of Chronos before the Crisis on Infinite Earths, and the story leaves a lot of questions, which I don't think have been answered in our stories.
What happened to Dr. Fox and his daughter? Did Chronos find them? And where did he go when he jumped into the Interactive Time Machine?
Most significantly, the issue strongly indicates that Chronos knows Batman's true identity! He starts off by claiming that there is an underworld legend that Batman's parents were killed by a lone gunman when he was a child. All this I find believable. I'm sure there are many such legends and theories in the underworld. HOWEVER, Chronos then goes on to say that his own research (presumably using his time machine) has determined the exact date when Batman's parents were killed. He then sends Batman back to Crime Alley, hoping Batman will prevent his own origin.
If he knows the time, and apparently also knows the place, then he must know that Batman is Bruce Wayne. Does he still have that knowledge, and if so, why hasn't he used it?
I also wonder what ever happened to Chronos' Interactive Time Machine. Based on their conversation, I assume that Superman and Batman destroyed it because it was so powerful. However, it is a monumental discovery for Earth-1, the ability to change history however you want. Even Rip Hunter, or Per Degaton of Earth-2 can't do that. I would be shocked if Chronos didn't rebuild it at some point, either to use himself for world domination, or to sell to others.
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Post by redsycorax on May 14, 2023 23:51:25 GMT
According to this summary of Worlds Finest 321, he 'became one with the Timestream', whatever that means. It could mean that his identity was wholly merged into the timestream and lost his independent identity and existence, metamorphosed into a transtemporal inhabitant of the timestream, or was erased from existence altogether. As for Chronos' knowledge of Batman's identity, what you're arguing is probable, John. Perhaps if this incident hadn't happened, he might have then arranged for the information to be shared with certain members of Batman's rogues gallery, although one suspects some might have closer past working relationships with him than others. Such as the pre-Crisis Injustice Gang, for instance. Or perhaps Chronos might have been taken into protective custody by temporal regulatory authorities because of his knowledge about the possibility of historical change- clearly, at some point in the DC future, knowledge of that technology becomes available to other supervillains, such as the LSH's Fatal Five, given the existence of time-sorter devices in the thirtieth century, used to temporarily erase the LSH from existence. Dr Fox and Malvinia are said to be living in New Jersey: dc.fandom.com/wiki/World%27s_Finest_Vol_1_321dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy_Vol_1_198 |
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Post by dans on May 15, 2023 14:13:59 GMT
maybe he became the Time Trapper?
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Post by redsycorax on May 16, 2023 2:03:42 GMT
I suspect he'd try to erase Ray Palmer's existence if he ever achieved that much power, given his longstanding enmity with the Atom.
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Post by johnreiter902 on May 16, 2023 2:31:57 GMT
According to this summary of Worlds Finest 321, he 'became one with the Timestream', whatever that means. It could mean that his identity was wholly merged into the timestream and lost his independent identity and existence, metamorphosed into a transtemporal inhabitant of the timestream, or was erased from existence altogether. Or perhaps Chronos might have been taken into protective custody by temporal regulatory authorities because of his knowledge about the possibility of historical change- clearly, at some point in the DC future, knowledge of that technology becomes available to other supervillains, such as the LSH's Fatal Five, given the existence of time-sorter devices in the thirtieth century, used to temporarily erase the LSH from existence. Dr Fox and Malvinia are said to be living in New Jersey: dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy_Vol_1_198The problem with all the theories you suggested is that World's Finest 321 is not the last appearance of Chronos. He has since appeared in several stories on this site
Auld Lang Syne
Fragments
Fear the Future
Ivy Town Project
Time and Mind
Three R’s, Plus One
Reactions
Jihad
Taking Notes
Special Deliveries
What Makes Chronos Tick
Snake in Our Midst
Apokolips Nyaah
with no explanation as far as I know as to how he returned.
I may need to re-read the issues in question, but I though that in World's Finest 321 Chronos said that one day he came to see Dr. Fox and found the house deserted, and he never knew what happened to him or his daughter, except that it seems to me he believed Fox had used the time machine
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Post by johnreiter902 on May 16, 2023 2:43:59 GMT
One possibility I just thought of. Maybe, when Chronos was recruited into the Villains War during the Crisis, Brainiac and Luthor cured him of whatever happened to him in the time machine, or possible plucked him from just before he dived in.
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Post by redsycorax on May 16, 2023 4:43:28 GMT
Well, it was the Crisis, so I imagine there was a great deal of temporal fluidity occurring 'then', so one suspects that your temporal extraction theory is probably the most logical.
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Post by DocQuantum on May 16, 2023 6:00:45 GMT
One possibility I just thought of. Maybe When Chronos was recruited into the Villains War during the Crisis, Brainiac and Luthor cured him of whatever happened to him in the time machine, or possible plucked him from just before he dived in. Similar explanations are in order for villains who appeared in the Crisis despite having previously died: or despite having been cured of what made them villains:
There are likely more, but those are the two that came to mind. Chronos would likely make the list. He has made several appearances in our stories since the Crisis, and never once displayed any knowledge of Batman's secret identity, so I'd say that his memory could have been wiped during or just before the Crisis. Temporal effects tend to do that sometimes (pretty much all Per Degaton stories, for example).
My interest in those 1985 World's Finest Comics appearances is more to do with Chronos' ability to travel through time in the first place. I once started to track Chronos' comic-book appearances to figure out when he started using time travel in the first place, because originally he was just a gimmick crook who used clocks and other timepieces in his crimes, similar to the Clock King. But somewhere along the line he started to use time travel, and I was trying to determine if that actually came earlier or as late as 1985 in those World's Finest Comics issues.
It's possible that the World's Finest stories ARE Chronos' first true dabbling with time travel, but in an UNTOLD STORY he ended up supplying his younger self with time travel technology and thus ended up rewriting his past. Perhaps thanks to his meddling in his own past the present-day Chronos ended up losing the memory of Batman's identity and perhaps some other specialized knowledge. Just spitballing here, but it seems there's a story there, about where in the world he could have gained time travel technology. He was never a brilliant scientist, but he was a clever crook.
Perhaps a much-later theft of time tech resulted in the original timeline's David Clinton becoming the very same Power-Broker from those later issues of World's Finest Comics whose identity was never revealed (though possibly he could have been the Monitor), while the altered timeline David Clinton carried on as the costumed Chronos in the Crisis and in our subsequent 5 Earths Project stories.
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Post by johnreiter902 on May 17, 2023 2:01:16 GMT
One possibility I just thought of. Maybe When Chronos was recruited into the Villains War during the Crisis, Brainiac and Luthor cured him of whatever happened to him in the time machine, or possible plucked him from just before he dived in. Similar explanations are in order for villains who appeared in the Crisis despite having previously died: or despite having been cured of what made them villains:
There are likely more, but those are the two that came to mind. Chronos would likely make the list. He has made several appearances in our stories since the Crisis, and never once displayed any knowledge of Batman's secret identity, so I'd say that his memory could have been wiped during or just before the Crisis. Temporal effects tend to do that sometimes (pretty much all Per Degaton stories, for example).
My interest in those 1985 World's Finest Comics appearances is more to do with Chronos' ability to travel through time in the first place. I once started to track Chronos' comic-book appearances to figure out when he started using time travel in the first place, because originally he was just a gimmick crook who used clocks and other timepieces in his crimes, similar to the Clock King. But somewhere along the line he started to use time travel, and I was trying to determine if that actually came earlier or as late as 1985 in those World's Finest Comics issues.
It's possible that the World's Finest stories ARE Chronos' first true dabbling with time travel, but in an UNTOLD STORY he ended up supplying his younger self with time travel technology and thus ended up rewriting his past. Perhaps thanks to his meddling in his own past the present-day Chronos ended up losing the memory of Batman's identity and perhaps some other specialized knowledge. Just spitballing here, but it seems there's a story there, about where in the world he could have gained time travel technology. He was never a brilliant scientist, but he was a clever crook.
Perhaps a much-later theft of time tech resulted in the original timeline's David Clinton becoming the very same Power-Broker from those later issues of World's Finest Comics whose identity was never revealed (though possibly he could have been the Monitor), while the altered timeline David Clinton carried on as the costumed Chronos in the Crisis and in our subsequent 5 Earths Project stories.
This is a really interesting idea, and it puts me in mind of an incongruity in the comic I didn't mention.
The Powerbroker says that Clinton has been retired from crime for a long time, and has been mostly forgotten, while concentrating on his research. And Clinton says that it was during a long stretch in prison that he heard about Dr. Fox, and he began mastering temporal physics after he got out.
These facts don't make sense. Chronos had not been inactive long at all, just since Action Comics #516. And I think (correct me if I'm wrong) he started using temporal technology in his second appearance in Justice League of America #21, not long after his first appearance in Atom #3.
But this might explain it. The original Chronos served a long stretch in prison after Atom #3, then retired from crime to master temporal physics. He is the Chronos in World's Finest #321. After he jumped into the time machine, it somehow retroactively created an alternate Chronos, who escaped jail soon after his first appearance, already possessed the knowledge of temporal physics without having to spend years studying it, and he is the main Chronos who made all the other appearances on Earth-1
He is also David Clinton, and his life is the same up until Atom #3. He doesn't know Batman's true identity however, and he is a much less skilled time traveler, since he has spent most of his time as a professional criminal and only really posses the knowledge he started with.
Incidentally, if this is true, and there are two Chronos' now, the one who "became one with the timestream" could have become the Time-Trapper, if we want to go that way. It would be neat.
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