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Post by redsycorax on Jul 17, 2023 0:21:05 GMT
Why is it that inhabitants of Daxam are so vulnerable to lead? It's a fairly inert substance, so how does this work out in terms of their physiology? There might be several possibilities:
(i) One is xenobiology. Let's say that Daxamites either evolved or adapted to their planetary environment with respiratory system modifications. That could have made them hypersensitive to aerosolised residue from lead, which would rapidly accumulate within their respiratory and cardiovascular systems, producing permanent toxicological responses. As I've suggested in other threads, Daxam may be rare in lead isotopes and may instead use tungsten for the purposes Terrans use lead.
(ii) Lead does have its own radioactive isotopes, although these are waystations as heavier radioactive elements decay over considerable amounts of time. Or at least, they are here on Earth. However, let's say that superearths like Daxam and Krypton have particular electromagnetic and gravitational aspects that we're not familiar with, given the absence of superearth terrestroid planets in our own solar system. One of them, in Daxam's case, might be longer radiological half lives for radioactive lead isotopes, so there's therefore more radioactive lead on Daxam and therefore, Daxamites have developed susceptibility to particular radioactive lead isotopes. When Superboy originally inadvertently exposed Mon-El to the original green painted lead object that poisoned him, let's tweak that account a little. What about Superboy taking no notice of where he got the lead from, and by coincidence, it happened to be an outcrop of the radioactive lead isotopes that Daxamites are vulnerable to? After all, Superboy didn't know that Mon-El had that vulnerability when he harvested the lead, so perhaps he just unfortunately happened on a radioactive lead deposit.
(iii) Dan suggested that Krypton has exotic matter in its planetary composition, which may have particularly affected Kryptonian geology (such as the formation of a radioactive uranium core). If that's the case, it might be due to an adjacent white hole which ejected volatilised exotic matter in the vicinity of Rao's protoplanetary system when Krypton and its sister planets were still forming. Let's say Daxam is either in Rao's interstellar vicinity or adjacent to a different white hole, which ejected different forms of exotic matter into Daxam's protoplanetary environment, which affected the retention of radioactive lead isotopes in its own geological development and evolution and adaptation of its lifeforms. Similar specific outcomes might occur in other contexts.
All of the above are applied scientific inferences. Possibility (i) would mean Daxamites are akin to Doctor Who's Cybermen, whose own respiratory systems are vulnerable to gold. Possibility (ii) takes advantage of gaps in our knowledge of superearths to provide a handy possible explanation, and much the same is true about white holes, which are currently also hypothetical theories in astrophysics and the effects of exotic matter.
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Post by dans on Jul 17, 2023 12:10:54 GMT
Lead poisoning is not uncommon; so maybe they are just hyper-sensitive to it. Although there are almost always lead particles in the air, so if it was hyper sensitivity to lead they would likely feel the effects in any industrialized atmosphere. So it must be some as-yet unknown side effect of solid lead. Such as a type of radiation that is currently still unknown to science? If it the exotic matter thing, perhaps the exotic particles in their physiology give them their powers, and the lead interferes with the exotic matter in some way?
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Jul 17, 2023 16:20:07 GMT
Then again it could be because that's what the writers decided.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 18, 2023 0:09:23 GMT
Perhaps because we're fan fiction writers and we are at liberty to embellish, adapt and expand on certain events if we so wish? Also, I admit it, I'm a shameless hard science junkie when it comes to my SF, so I like an intellectual challenge in this context. So, why are Daxamites vulnerable to lead when lead is an inert substance, here are some possible explanations, yadda yadda yadda...
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Post by dans on Jul 18, 2023 1:23:31 GMT
I think they picked lead because it is sort of the 'opposite' of kryptonite - the stuff that protects Superman from his only weakness paradoxically is deadly to this other, similar powerful being - and it was supposed to be ironic... that's the way I always read it.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 18, 2023 4:06:27 GMT
I imagine that it was the writer's purpose, dan, but the question is, how could this be feasibly enhanced to deal with current reader interest in approximate scientific credibility or veracity? And so, I embarked on the above to work out how it might be possible for Daxamites to have developed their susceptibility to lead, and why it might have developed.
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Post by jonclark on Jul 18, 2023 7:51:59 GMT
Basic facts in the classic DCU.
1)Kryptonians and Daxamites gain powers from the light of yellow suns.
2)Among those powers are X-ray vision which is blocked by lead. At least Pre-Crisis their heat vision also was supposdly ineffective on lead (some stories stated this and others showed Kryptonians using heat vision to melt lead when exposed to kryptonite.
3) There is some connection between lead and kryptonite. In Kryptonians lead can block the effects of kryptonite (at least the green variety). In Daxamites the presence of green kryptonite cancels the de;eterious effects of lead. Mon-El was not effected by the lead box Superboy stored green kryptonite in when Superboy exposed Mon-El to kryptonite. And it was later stated that green kryptonite was a critical part of Mon-El's anti lead serum invented by Brainiac 5.
My supposition is that kryptonite works because it is similar to yellow sun radiation- at least as far as Kryptoniains and Daxamites are concerned. In a Kryptonians their bodies cannot metabolize kryptonite for energy but it effectively is absorbed by the cells in place of yellow sun rays preventing thier cells from drawing power. But in Daxamites for some reason the reverse happens- their cells can absorb green K and use it in place of yellow solar rays for nourishment. The irony is the same lead that will block the harmful kryptonite radiation for Superboy, will actually block both nourishing radiation from yellow stars in Mon-El. And the same kryptonite that kills Superboy by starving his cells will provide nourishment to lead blocked cells of Mon-El, This also explains why the anti-lead serum give Mon-El powers under red suns.
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Post by dans on Jul 18, 2023 12:08:06 GMT
very nice, Jon. I wonder if kryptonite is an isotope of lead made up out of exotic particles instead of atoms?
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Jul 18, 2023 14:10:31 GMT
Nice reasoning, Jon! And Red, I do appreciate the right of writers to speculate about such topics but as a reader I personally dislike the hard science elements of some science fiction and tend to skip over those sections if possible. That's a failing of mine not of you or other writers. I admit that's why I wrote in a story that Starbreaker experimented on some characters like Luma etc. and the result was they were no longer limited in use of their powers to being under a specific type of sun etc... It just made it simpler.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 18, 2023 17:47:06 GMT
As Dan alludes to above, Mon-El's vulnerability to lead was done for literary reasons for one story (a story recycled from an earlier "Superman's Big Brother" story featuring Halk Kar instead of Mon-El). The plot demanded that something indicates Mon-El is not Kryptonian after all, since he is not affected by kryptonite. The vulnerability to lead was created to add pathos, as Superboy himself was responsible for using lead (known to block kryptonite radiation) that was painted green like green K in order to prove Mon-El's deception, only to discover that not only was he not trying to fake anything due to memory loss, but that the "harmless" lead is actually deadly to Mon-El.
The writer, Robert Bernstein, probably never thought Mon-El would become a recurring character discussed well into the next century. No hard science was even considered in this one-off story concerning Daxamite biology. So we're stuck accepting something that was introduced on a literary and thematic basis and trying to justify it later on with scientific principles that honestly will NEVER make sense.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 18, 2023 17:49:13 GMT
Though I won't fault anyone for trying to make sense of it! One of the fun things about fandom is this kind of reasoning, though I don't think it should be taken too seriously for reasons I outlined above.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 19, 2023 0:25:53 GMT
Well, yeah, but reader expectations and scientific literacy have shifted over time. Adults read comics, as do intelligent adolescents, so there's no harm in extrapolating or retconning explanations for classic continuity. And for the record, although I dislike the Fourboot less than other 'reboots' of Legion continuity, I really don't go for retconning Mon-El's Daxamite background away. And I realise some folks don't go for hard science content in fanfiction. However, someone of us correspondingly do. Personally, I think using it adds depth to plot and characterisation possibilities.
And then again, there are some cases where it doesn't really work. In another thread, John made a very courageous attempt to work out the tutti-frutti Earth-338's history out. However, although I admire his deduction, that particular AU probably has some strange quirks when it comes to logic, causality and science. It might have survived the CIE on that basis. The Anti-Monitor probably tried to obliterate it, but then took a good hard look at it then ran away screaming!
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Post by jonclark on Jul 19, 2023 5:56:17 GMT
I think there is a fine balance to hard science explanations. If i read one more trearise on how there is not enough surface area on Superman's body to absorb sufficient solar energy, I might go raving mad. And if I see one more "logical consequence" of near-light speed applied to a Flash I might run screaming from any book with a Scarlet Speedster in it.
But if a writer manages to make a character more effective and interesting by using scientific knowledge to flesh the character out and distinguish them, I might enjoy it better than when you have three indistinguishable flying bricks in a story with radically different origins. (ex. Captain Marvel, Superman, and Captain Atom all performing the same set of feats identically rather thnn working out logical differences in how their powers might differ)
My one caveat for hard science is to remember the DCU doesn't work like the real world and if you want to apply real world physics you need to consistent and do it without seriuosly undermining continuity. Barry's and Superman's history of travelling faster than light trumps a writer's attempt to apply real world physics. Or to use a description of Superman from the Byrne era- "Real world physics don't apply to Superman even if they apply to everything else in the story"
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Post by lawrenceliberty on Jul 19, 2023 15:45:38 GMT
I prefer the original pre-crisis Legion, then the Levitz era post crisis Legion that ended with Magic War, then the so-called "Archie version" of the LSH w. names like Apparition being used, then the Mark Waid/Jim Shooter series that was briefly known as Supergirl and the Legion. I admit I hated the 5 year leap because it was too dark and I hated the Bendis version because it was just too different from the original for my tastes.
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Post by dave on Jul 19, 2023 23:25:12 GMT
I too prefer the pre-crisis and Levitz post crisis. while I thought the 5 year leap was okay, though I agree that it was a bit dark, my main problem was that I thought it was improbable as I could not see the Legion breaking up a having to be put back together again. Still I stop reading comics after Zero Hour as it destroy "My" Legion and JSA.
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